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based_person5y ago
"Feminism", technically speaking, just means the perspective that women ought be more "empowered". I will assume that you are referring to the worldview of people who *derive identity* from feminism, or "feminists".
Feminists will generally try to make egalitarian arguments to justify their position, but in order for those arguments to be relevant, you have to refuse to view women as anything more than eternal victims to a completely rhetorical interpretation of sexual discrimination.
This perspective is fundamentally flawed because sexual discrimination is a pragmatic problem, not a rhetorical one.
Feminism =/= Egalitarianism
Feminism can, however, be in alignment with Egalitarianism in temporal & specific scenarios, such as the US suffrage movement.
While "feminism" is not technically incompatible with any economic model, the perpetually-victimized and entitled worldview of most feminists in 21st century US is largely incompatible with free-market models, in that these people tend to ironically view the personal responsibility that comes with those economic models as a form of oppression, when it is quite literally a form of empowerment.
But if one were to strictly read your question at face-value, it's effectively the same as asking if oranges and good gas-mileage are incompatible: they have nothing to do with one-another.
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For
epalmer5y ago
**Feminism must be anti-capitalist in order to liberate marginalized women.**
There are fundamental conflicts between the two.
- Feminists historically want equality and the economic freedom of women, and in more modern versions this equality focuses on [equality of all](https://jacobinmag.com/2019/09/capitalism-socialist-feminism-inequality-sexism), regardless of gender, race, class or ability. This is not possible nor desired under capitalism.
- Feminism is an ideology based upon eradicating inequalities, whereas capitalism requires inequality for it to thrive and function effectively.
- Capitalism doesn't value people. It values profit.
- Capitalism's goals do not prioritise those of the feminist, often support the opposite, and are even willing to compromise equal rights in the name of profit.
- Encouraging capitalism means promoting individualism over collective action which is another contradictory value.
- A "feminist" who partakes in the capitalist system and profits off the back of it, earning a lot of money, will be likely doing a lot more to harmfully contribute towards the issues feminism tries to eradicate than they could possibly solve using their money.
- Capitalist values were made and upheld by men and this is reflected in the gender pay gap, maternity leave policies etc. Women suffer many obstacles at the hands of [capitalist policy](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/feb/05/feminist-economics-series-women-obstacles) in the 21st Century.
- Capitalist governments "...have led to the unequal distribution of resources and opportunities that [disproportionately](https://philanthropynewsdigest.org/off-the-shelf/the-gender-effect-capitalism-feminism-and-the-corporate-politics-of-development) affect the lives and well-being of girls, women, and the poor around the world."
In spite of these points, I feel it would be contrary to the cause to use them as a reason to discourage capitalists to become feminists. Rather, these arguments are intended to encourage capitalists to reevaluate the morality of their economics if they truly value the feminist cause.
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based_person5y ago
Pretty much every point pertaining to "equality" in this comment could be logically contested depending on what exactly you mean by "equality".
"Equality" in outcome cannot exist so long as people have any freedom and control over their own lives, and because the US constitution promises both Freedom and Equality, the only logical conclusion is that you are not entitled to the same outcome as someone else; and are "equal" in the sense that you are free to make the same decisions as others, and reap the benefits without irrelevant factors (potentially such as biological sex) having an impact.
This is fundamentally distinct from the interpretation of "equality", or recently dubbed "equity", peddled by statist leftists, wherein they assert that people ought be treated differently based on irrelevant physical characteristics in order to achieve equal outcomes across popular delineations of those arbitrary physical characteristics.
In truth, even Marx acknowledged how equality of outcome was inevitably oppressive. In his critique of the Gotha Program, he discussed how laborers with different capabilities ought be paid differently (he haphazardly assumes everyone will also work to their full capability). He then goes on to rationalize this seemingly self-contradictory realization by saying what he *really* opposes is the concept of social classes; but in doing so he completely ignores that social classes are the direct result of people making different decisions when it comes to their labor, and the management of the fruit it bears.
People are ultimately individuals.
Their interests are distinct as individuals.
No amount of ignoring supply-related and moral issues, as Marx does in his doctrine, will change that.
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epalmer5y ago
1. I’m not sure where your understanding of equity comes from but it is not to be carried out according to ‘irrelevant physical characteristics’, but a variety of _relevant_ socio-economic determinants, and of course some physical factors such as race, sex, disability etc.
2. Social classes are not ‘the direct result of people making decisions when it comes to their labour’. You fail to provide any evidence for this. This is a dangerous mindset which blames the proletariat for their oppression as a result of their own decisions, and is false narrative.
3. Providing people with equal rights does not limit their freedom in any way. Equality of outcome does not imply that everyone will come out as clones of one another, but be provided with the means to equally flourish without being disadvantaged by factors such as their gender in this case. It does not take away a persons right to choose their own path in life and be an individual, but inversely clears that path of obstacles which other groups of people would not have faced.
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based_person5y ago
1. Your perspective refuses to acknowledge that people are not defined by your prejudices surrounding their physical characteristics. Your insistence that your prejudices are *relevant* is no different than someone who insists that blacks ought be persecuted because they [as a collective] disproportionately commit violent crimes.
You are, in letter and in spirit, both sexist and racist.
2. I could just as easily claim you're wrong and call your perspective dangerous (something which you've ironically failed to produce any evidence for). But let's bridge that into a conversation: what would you say "social classes" are, and what causes them?
3. People are indeed entitled to not be discriminated against under the law. What's more, over-compensative measures such as McDonnell-Douglass burden shifting actually discriminate in favor of groups you assert are collectively victims.
Despite this, you continue asserting they are [relative] victims.
The only rational explanation that I can fathom to understand where you're coming from is that you view discrimination as a rhetorical problem.
But that perspective is fundamentally flawed, because discrimination is a pragmatic problem. Not a rhetorical one.
It does not just magically exist whenever you need to justify your opinions. If exists between individuals (or groups of specific individuals) where someone acts against another.
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Turi5y ago
We're building Parlia as a space to foster conversation. _Ad hominem_ attacks destroy any possibility of that.
We need to listen respectfully, assume honest intent on the part of everyone commenting, and engage civilly.
Nothing is going to change someone's mind less than being attacked personally. Always make your case against the idea, never the person.
Check out our ['Keeping it Civil'](https://www.parlia.com/article/keeping-it-civil) and ['Rules of Parlia'](https://www.parlia.com/article/rules-of-parlia) blogs - they're just the beginning of community guidelines, so please also make suggestions.
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based_person5y ago
Can you help me understand what it was I said that constituted ad hominem?
Looking over my comment, it seems any comment I made about the individual was pertaining to their argument & trying to understand how they could rationalize their position; as the position seems to contradict itself.
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MrStrawHat5y ago
I'm assuming this is from the comment 'You are, in letter and in spirit, both sexist and racist', which I suppose is an attack on the character. This doesn't mean I don't agree, as I too think it's inherently sexist and racist to assume both sex and race are relevant to socio-economic class.
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Turi5y ago
Thanks for your patience here.
"You are, in letter and in spirit, both sexist and racist" is a brutal attack on the person here, which would have been so much better framed as a comment on the ideas/approach/framework.
The more contentious and divisive a thread, the more the comments need to be thoughtful, respectful and substantive.
The rest of your post (and all your other posts elsewhere on Parlia) does that well.
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Mixed
mayowa_o5y ago
**Capitalism prides and partially achieves the economic development of the individual, regardless of sex. However, when we look at those who are exploited by the system, women are the disproportionate victims.**
• Feminism, and liberal feminism in particular, is about recognising women as individuals and advocating for them to be given equal opportunities to men. In light of this, capitalism could be said to aid these efforts because of its focus on [individualism, social innovation and the process of achieving material wealth](https://www.cato.org/commentary/why-feminists-should-embrace-capitalism). For example, women have been able to own their own businesses, take up high positions of authority in corporate spaces and become much wealthier than their counterparts in less developed capitalist societies, thus giving them the opportunity to escape traditional gender roles. Moreover, it has been suggested that capitalism has helped to [partially erode the Indian caste system](https://www.cato.org/policy-analysis/capitalisms-assault-indian-caste-system-how-economic-liberalization-spawned-low).
• On the other hand, capitalism has traits that make it somewhat incompatible with feminism. For example, a key tenet of feminism is equality, whereas capitalism cannot exist without the exploitation of someone along the supply chain. Oftentimes, such as in the [fashion retail sector](https://www.euronews.com/green/2021/06/09/exploitative-fast-fashion-brands-need-to-ditch-the-feminist-slogans-this-international-wom), the lowest-paid work tends to go to women. Furthermore, the free market does not usually provide for things such as [maternity leave and childcare](https://worldcrunch.com/culture-society/why-feminism-and-capitalism-can-never-be-reconciled), which again has a negative effect on the extent to which women can actually reap the benefits of living in a capitalist system.
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